hands or shoulders

TIGER HOUNDS,

HAVE TAUGHT EXCLUSIVELY HANDS FOR ALL BLOCKS, NO MATTER WHAT THEY MAY BE. A good close handed punch that will stop your opponent's heart beat on the first step and grabing cloth with the hands INSIDE the
body framework of your opponent WITH YOUR THUMBS UP FOR THE REF TO SEE, is the way to go in my book. Get a copy of Joe Nagles' counter/power series and get the basics down pat of how he coaches his offensive line with the Redskins and anywhere else he may coach before he retires and you will profit immensely from it. In 42 years of on field coaching, I think going to this technique was the best thing I ever did for my offensive lines!!! Just my opinion as always.

Coach Easton-TIGER ONE

The GREATEST advantage the rules makers ever gave to the offense is the use of the HANDS! I'm not going to give it BACK!

Shoulder blocking gets you "OVER-EXTENDED" - which is the MAJOR cause of losing contact. You cannot keep your center of gravity over your base if you shoulder block (check out Jim McNally's EXCELLENT tapes with Anthony Munoz demonstrating - look particularly for his "Center of Gravity Drill"). ALSO: I don't want to teach shoulders for runs& hands for passes!

I say this from the standpoint of having used (as a player) or taught (as a coach) shoulder blocking from 1952 thru 1975, and taught "hands" from 1976 to present. That is a total of 55 years of experience (player AND coach) divided roughly equal in teaching both ways to block. That experience has taught me that there is (IMO) NO COMPARISON!

We teach the following (I predict that if you TRY it - you will stay WITH it):

BUGEL BLOCKING TECHNIQUE (ARTICLE):

Bugel's current and former players believe his success stems from masterful motivational skills, communication ability and teaching acumen. Returning Redskins say they have improved markedly through Bugel's emphasis on hand techniques to hinder defenders.

Last season, Thomas, a gifted athlete who is agile despite his 6-foot-5, 306-pound frame, relied on a flawed blocking method -- blocking wide, with his hands several inches apart. It left Thomas' chest open to defenders, making him more vulnerable. A lineman has more control over the defender by keeping his hands close together inside the chest area -- "tight hands," Bugel explained -- before punching out.

The Redskins also have incorporated one of Bugel's trademark techniques: the arm pump, which is used in run blocking. The lineman cocks, or pumps, his arms to his sides before forcefully pushing upward -- "like a fork lift," Bugel said -- into the defender's chest area. It diminishes the chances of holding and keeps the lineman from being passive.

"He wants us to hit 'em in the chest and make their heartbeat stop," Thomas said. "It stuns them at the line because the defense is taught to hit you in your chest, so it's better if you hit them first."

Bugel used imaginary handcuffs, teaching his players through repetition and constant reminders. Thomas, a sixth-year veteran, had previously known a similar technique but stopped using it last season because it wasn't emphasized. Samuels, who is coming off perhaps his worst NFL season, picked up damaging tendencies in recent years -- dropping his head and using his hands improperly.

Karjaw, you make a great case but remember... in the NFL 300 pound offensive linemen are blocking 300 pound defensive linemen. So I don't buy the specific argument against what Joe Bugel would do--it's an even matchup. In high school, 200 pound offensive linemen are blocking 200 pound defensive linemen.

The use of hands is way too efficient. The ability to control the defender with the punch is more efficient on drive, reach, down, and double team blocks. I know what you're saying; however, I will never buy the argument that forearms/shoulder blocking is more efficient--because it's not!

If you're so concerned with blocking bigger people, here is my advice--DON'T BLOCK THEM, OPTION THEM! The most efficient way to account for a defensive lineman against which you are outmanned is to read him. This is why the triple option best solves the problem in question. If you can't block a noseguard, double team him and option the next two defensive linemen.

I've coached in the Wing-T. Tubby and Ted are long gone now. When the rule was enacted in 1976 and later updated in 1985, it allowed offensive linemen to practically hold the defender. The difference between an offensive lineman punching on a down block and a lineman using "the flipper" is night and day. As someone who has worked offensive line camps all over the country and having the opportunity to stand next to Jim McNally and Larry Zierlein as they work with offensive linemen at NFL training camps, anything other than using hands to punch an defender is cheating your offensive linemen out of the best coaching possible.

I look forward to discussing this further.

Coaches
I appreciate your comments. I can only tell you this. I have spent time at Linemen camps as well. Not with Pro OL coaches, but with High school and D2 and D3 coaches. Coaches who are working with less. They are teaching the techniques I have written above. I do not remembering saying that shoulder blocking is more efficient that hand blocking. It gives the smaller kid a chance where hands absolutely do not. I have seen it with my OWN eyes. I do agree with optioning them, we already do this. It is one of our solutions. Finally, who made Tubby and Ted the end all of the Wing T. I do not subscribe to their offense. We do not use their wing t. We are uncoventional with our offense. Please do not mistake what we do for Delaware's Wing t. I do not care for their version of it. Maybe you ran it and my old head coach ran it, but you are right in saying that it is long gone, because I do not run it. I think there might be quite a few coaches out there who would disagree with that comment. Since I last looked it seems Tubby and Ted's long gone offense is not gone. Their book is still selling for over $100.00. If they were gone why is it getting that much? Finally, who decided that using the flipper is less efficient? Pro OLIne coaches. I would like to know who decided that. If I remember right there are still a TON of HS in the nation who are using the shoulder technique. I personally know of schools in:
Georgia
Alabama
NY
Tennessee
NJ
CA (Clovis high school is one that gets over extended as well)
These are ones that I know of and I know the coaches personally. I willing to bet there are more. I do not coach PRO or NCAA. I do not care if they believe it is more efficient or not. I have seen Larry speak is phenominal and very knowledgeable. Jim McNally likes to hear himself talk. SO he can show people how smart he is. I know his credentials as well. They are great too. I am speaking with HS coaches and I have learn more from them then any college or pro guy could ever teach me. FInally, even matchup, I wish. HS field are the most unequal talented fields in the USA. If you play D1 you see D1 athletes. If you play NFl you see NFL athletes. If you play hs you could see a team with 1 D1 player and 2 D2 players and a few D3 players where my team has none. Some of my kids are not even 200pds. Your giving them too much credit. What you see and what I see are obviously two different things. I will say it again, I see 180 vs. 250-285. This is on a consistent basis. This is not equal. Zeirlin said it himself the HS coaches are some the best coaches in the US, because they have to do more with less and most play the hand they are dealt. If I have 180 pd OL and he is the best I have I have got to do more with him, I can not go out and draft or recruit different kid. I am closer in size to the smaller HS in my league then I am to the larger ones, but yet I still have to play them and they are far from equal.
Oneback,
Alex Gibbs is (IMO) the best OL coach out there and you are right in your questioning. The answer is to teach them both. We teach both to all of our kids. It is not a major problem for us. we are able to teach both because we use the same technique just a different hitting surface. Please read our technique above again.
Karjaw

Karjaw - once again - do what YOU believe in.

ANOTHER reason we don't use the shoulder is that you PASS PRO WITH YOUR HANDS (at least in DROPBACK). Therefore - we spend more time on the hands because it is consistent in run AND pass!!!!!!!

We can end the discussion by simply saying that you MUST be sold on what YOU do - then go out & execute it!

Karjaw - I AGREE 100%.

Remember however - the thread started with the following (post by "Tigerhounds). In order to answer his question - each of us must state our PREFERENCE, & WHY we prefer what we do:

Best wishes to your Mom & Dad!

tigerhounds posted:

You winged-t coaches out there - do you still teach shoulder blocking or hands. Are there some blocks you use hands (scoop, jet?) and some you use shoulders (traps, sweeps?)

I have my feeling on this and am interested in what the rest of you do...

Karjaw - I gave three lectures in Baltimore last weekend. Good clinic. There were coaches from: Redskins, Pa St, Va Tech, U Va., U of Delaware, & U of Maryland.

Best wishes!

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject as I do not and have not coached O-line.

What karjaw describes is exactly how I would teach a down block, for example, the play-side OT blocking down on the 3 tech. if we are going to use a fold scheme. Would someone else be willing to describe how they teach a down block differently and explain what the advantages/disadvantages are of their way?

Oneback
What you described in your post is exactly how we teach a shoulder block. We stop a penetrator with our nose of the helmet. The most important thing about your post is the aiming point. It is the near shoulder pad and belt buckle. We call this a gap block. The difference between a gap and down is the head placement of the blocker. On a gap block the head is in the front. On a down block the head is behind. Why the difference?
We tell our kids to go to school every down. Learn what your opponent likes to do to counter your blocks. Is he a spinner or penetrator or reader. If he is a spinner or reader you want the head behind so that when he makes a move your head position does not allow it. If he is a penetrator the head must be in front to stop the pentration. When I coaches pro ball I taught hands and when they tried to spin, cut him. He will not spin again after that. What ending up happening was the DL would start a fight because he felt that this was a dirty technique. I assured my OL that the Broncos had done the same tech. I got it from Alex Gibbs videos.
Probably 90% of the plays in the Wing t are these types of blocks. All about angles in the Wing T.
Hope this helps
Karjaw

Oneback
Maryland is not East for us. I know it is for you. Baltimore is 7 hours for me. I should have been more specific: When are you coming to the Northeast. NJ, PA or NY

Oneback
I do have it. I will watch
Karjaw