READ in Gun (Veer) Triple vs. Zone triple revived

I had said in my original post that I would think you could use this imaginary line rule for the zone read or inside veer also but when I was thinking about it today I decided I don't think it will work the same way as it does on this guy's trap read. The rule is the line is drawn vertically from the LOS through the backside guard's inside foot and into the backfield. If the 2/3 tech crosses the line then the QB is supposed to keep the ball and replace the 2/3 tech. When the DT crosses this line he will be almost straight ahead of the mesh, allowing the QB room to run by him through the B gap. If you use the same rule for reading a 4/5 tech and draw the line through the Offensive Tackle's inside foot he will still be 1-3 yards outside the QB when he crosses the line. The DE could cross the line then still react to the QB if he kept his shoulders square to the LOS. I'm not saying it doesn't work for reading the 3 tech but I don't think it would work for reading a 5 tech. In a later post by the same coach it doesn't sound like he uses a vertical line for the read on inside veer.

Every time I read through the posts on this subject I am agreeing more with you tc. The "commitment of the DE" is probably the best thing to base your reads on. Almost reading his whole body to determine what his intent is. Simplicity for the QB is going to create an opportunity for best execution. Under center QB's that run midline, inside veer and outside veer look for similar movements by the read key for give or keep on all 3 plays If a shotgun team runs zone read, inside veer and also a play where they read the 3 tech I think they would want to make those reads similar for give or keep as well. Then the QB can just react and play instead of have to do too much thinking.

The bad QB reads that turn in to big plays are probably the result of an athletic QB that is in space vs. a DE. That is a mismatch that the QB will win most of the time. Almost like tag in an elementary PE class. The athletic kids will sometimes put themselves in bad situations on purpose just to see if they can still get away...and often they do because they are quicker and faster than the person chasing them.

I have noticed when watching Oregon clips that Massoli (too bad for Oregon, he didn't have his head on straight) sometimes made bad reads but was able to just run by the DE anyway. All he needed was the DE to lean inside and he could usually beat him when he kept the ball.

I think the shotgun gives the QB more space to exploit the mismatch. When running from under center everything happens in tighter quarters therefore not as much space for the QB to "get away".

I think you are right to not mess with your zone read mesh if it is working. Two different spread option coaches in my area have both told me to not overcoach the QB and RB on the mesh in gun reads. It is better to let them work the exact steps and movements out through repetition instead of trying to make them do things exactly like other programs or other coaches are doing. As long as the fundamentals of the mesh are there and it is smooth the little things will be a little different with different bodies doing it. If it works for your guys it must be right for your guys.

You said you wanted the timing of the zone triple mesh and the veer triple mesh to be the same. Is that for getting your pitchback into position?

"WE have a very fast athletic DE on our team and it gives him more "time" to recover also..the kid pi$$es mes off at practice.glad he's on our team. "

That's the issue we have had on the veer mesh. it seems like if we are playing a very good DE he has time to recover and slow play the read. The mesh is happening deep enough in the backfield that he can still come off the RB and keep the Q to little or no gain. We had some improvement in changing the mesh so the Q is actually heading toward the DE on the play and rather than happening 5 yds deep it is about 2-3 and this seemed to help put more pressure on the DE to make a decision but it is also more difficult to time up that mesh.

Is your toss just a quick pitch to your RB. The same RB that is your dive back on veer? Do you pull anyone to lead around the corner? I have been toying with the quick pitch out of gun. Seems like it would be the same effect as rocket toss out of double wing with the RB catching the ball and already being outside the DE.

We are just putting in gun veer for the first time this summer and are planning to have the QB take a step forward with the playside foot as he receives the snap. Then turning to mesh with the dive back. We have only run it with a token read defender for the QB's to read so we haven't gotten the full speed look at it yet. We are hoping the step forward will put the mesh close enough to the LOS to make it difficult for the DE to slow play the dive/QB. We got that step forward from someone(?) and as I researched it I found a lot of Florida clips that used the same footwork on their gun veer. I would say that Tebow is moving towards the line (or the DE) throughout the mesh. From watching their clips if the DE tried to play both all he would accomplish on the keep plays is to dive back to the QB and throw an arm out hoping to hang on and pull the QB down as he drags the DE down the field. Then all we need is a QB with Tebow's skills and size to make plays for us.

We don't really run quick pitch too often, we run jet or rocket to the slot a little, we actually have had better luck with speed option, especially if we have an end that is just crashing. We like to cluster, which for us is a wide bunch formation, and see if they overload, if they don't we like screen to one of the cluster, if they overload we will run speed away.

Maybe we've just gotten lucky but we haven't had too many problems w/our qb getting hit on speed. If we are in cluster we generally at least get the safety to cheat over, if he stays in the middle of the formation we are either seeing a 4-2 which we feel like we can effectively block or throwing the screen. Why do you feel you are hanging him out there any more than on any other play?

In our speed option we use outside zone blocking to protect the QB from the free shot from the DE. He tries to get the corner and we either pitch off the scraping LB or we crack with our inside receiver and pitch off the force player. If the DE widens too much for us to get the corner the QB ducks it up. Often that scraping LB and FS overrun the QB and we are down the middle of the field. We probably don't get the pitch as much as when pitching off the DE but it works for us.