I have always told my players there are no stupid questions so I am going to follow my own advice.
We have run inside and outside zone and counter/trap schemes the past 2 years. We have gotten better at it. I have a very good TB and alot of talent at receiver. We graduated a pocket passing QB this year and the two guys we have coming up are good athletes, but are not the strong armed type we are used to. I have been researching the spread gun offense and I like what I see so far. I see I can run IS/OS zone and I can run some of our counter/trap plays. So the fit seems okay so far.
My questions are these. What exactly is the veer? I have seen it explained as zone and wedge blocking, and I understand it as an option play. There is ISV and OSV. I think that on ISV you read the 3 Tech and on OSV you read the 5 Tech? Can Veer Blocking be defined into a set of rules similar to IS Zone? How does it fit with undersized linemen?
I should mention that I coach in Canada. 12 man football and the field is 65 yards wide (lots of room to spread). We will have 7 in the box most of the time even when we go to a 3x2 one back set so I will have to block the extra defender with an H back or receiver. 4x2 empty sets (I know crazy) will leave me with 6 defenders in the box on most occasions. Quick passes and screens I have but we still have to run the ball.
Veer Blocking at least Outside Veer blocking actually can leave up to two DL unblocked. Yes it is closely associated with the Triple Option. However, it can indeed be used with many other Offenses. If you get a chance read Homer Smith Book (I am currently doing same) Other material by Tony Demaeo (SP) is a bit more current. The Thing about the Veer Offense is the combination of the Triple Option and Pocket passing game. To my mind this gives the Veer a decided advantage over the Wishbone if you are looking for a more balanced approach.
Since I am only vaguely familiar with the Canadian rules I dont know how well this offensive system would would work.
Inside material is the Midline and Trap Outside are the Dives and Option.
Its not about how much YOU know about the game, its about how much you share that knowledge with the people around you.
Canadian rules, I think, may benefit this offense with the exception of only having 3 downs. With the exception of my 5 OL everyone else can be in motion at the same time, 2 can be skating down the line and 4 of them can be attcking the LOS at the snap. I am looking at making it tough to pick out the pitch man.
I have been researching more about the Veer. I figured out that the midline read is the 3 tech, ISV is 5 tech, and OSV to the TE is the high dive 7/9 tech.
What I am hoping to find is a set of rules or a blocking scheme to the 3 different plays. If anyone can shed some light on this, especially out of Gun Spread that would be great.
Coach if you're thinking GUN, really only need ISV ....OSV is tough out of GUN , even DEMEO has abandoned trying it. he feels that with the cutback possibilities on ISV from the GUN (esp with the "better wrong than long" pojnt method reads) that you remove the need for midline and counters and traps...allows more reps on the base play...his site tonydemeo.com is a great resource for GUN triple.
with all your unlimited motion the mesh back and pitch back can virtually come from anywhere and this confuses assignment football.
however, if you already run inside zone then you may want to consider zone read triple ie.reading the BS DE vs the FS DE on Gun triple..Also as far as blocking is concerned DEMEO's method is similar to blocking zone away from the playside of GUN triple
Post by Coach Campbell on Jan 23, 2011 10:48:23 GMT
Inside Veer from the gun has become a very successful play for us and is a great compliment to your other plays that gives a cross keep to the zone read. The Veer with triple option now allows you to bring everything out the same side. Coach Campbell
Outside veer is not something to run unless you have a TE. You have to run the play directly over the OT, and it is not possible unless you have an ability from a TE to downblock and seal that edge to isolate a TE/OLB. Outside veer can be a very good play if you run a TE. It is nearly impossible to defend if it is run and blocked properly. Because the stress that veer can put on the edges of a defense, the playaction pass off of it can be deadly. Our reads are more based on gaps, though. Our players learn that outside veer read is the first man outside C gap, inside is the first man outside B gap, and midline would be the first man outside A gap. Our gaps are defined over players, though. A gap is the Center's hip to head up on the Guard, B gap is from Guard to the head of the Tackle, and C gap is from the outside shade of the OT to outside shade of the TE.
Austin High School
There is nothing that will show a man's true character like the 2 yard line.
Heres the problem I have and hopefully have figured out. I have seen veer blocking as OL blocking one gap back. The PST blocks B gap, PSG blocks A gap, C backside A, BSG backside B gap, and BST blocks backside C. We run into alot of 7 in the box the SAM and WILL stacked over the OT, even when we spread teams out so this will not account for the playside LB on the veer dive. What I have done is zoned it playside with the PST going to the PSLB and leaving the DE for the read.
Coach, We ran this play as our bread and butter for 2-3 years. WE would combo tackle and guard to sam, send the center to the mike, cut the 1 tech and either get to 2nd level or stay cutoff w/the backside tackle. Our slot would sometimes crack to the sam so we could get a straight double team and the slot defender would be our pitch man depending on formation, game plan etc.We would get teams keeping 7 in the box against 1 back sets all the time and the advice I always got was to throw it if they do that. Unfortunately we did not always have the receivers/qb to make that work. That being said, Some things we learned running it 1) Really good DE's who could play the Q and RB. We found that this happened most often when our mesh was happening too deep in the backfield. On this play I have to disagree with the better wrong than long idea. If the mesh was too quick it didn't sell it and the DE was able to come off the dive and make the play on the Q or vice versa. Depending on the personnell each year we have had to have our QB shuffle into the line like you would see Tebow doing at Florida. Another thing we'd do to take care of this is pull our weak guard and kick out the DE to keep him honest. 2) Small RB- We had the most success running this with our bigger backs, not necessarily our fastest or shiftiest. WE found that the big kids forced the DE to commit to him more than the fast kids did we were much more able to grind out the yardage. 3) Switch exchange with DE and LB- This made the reads tough for the QB because he is now reading the DE coming out to him so he gives the ball and the RB is getting stuffed by the Sam. This is where we'd try to crack with the slot or start reading the 3 tech and block the DE or the sam
ND Coach. Are you talking about a 43 set? if so, you should be in good shape. We give our kids this rule...Block #1 man on...if not covered then #2 seal inside gap and work to LB...if no DL aligned there, then #3 release to near LB. If none of that, #4 arc release to OLB/SS (almost exclusively a technique for a TE on outside veer). The kids do have to combo block especially in the case where there is a 3 tech with a LB stacked. Also, don't let the OL be afraid to cut block--especially in the first gap or two backside of the play. The key is that the kids do not let their shoulders turn perpendicular to the LOS. Get off low and hard, and drive your feet. An OL needs to realize that patty-cake at the LOS on a veer play will kill the offense.
Austin High School
There is nothing that will show a man's true character like the 2 yard line.
These are the 2 most common sets we will see, again most times we will see 7 in the box. With the playside being right we would have the RT go to the stacked backer, C and RG zone the DT to the MLB. The LT and LG would zone to the DT to the backside LB and TE if he is in would have the backside DE. If no TE we would leave the backside end. The playside end is the read and the playside Half would be the pitch key. My thought is to double the playside LB with a receiver and motion someone, by game plan, to be the pitch. Hopefully the 2 pictures show up. Tell me if I have a play. I put this edit in the RB in the second picture should be the same as the first, just didn't come out that way.
We ran it a lot pretty much the way you described it. If that 3 tech to the play side can string it out he can cause problems getting to the LB unless your slot is pretty tight. Are you bringing motion for the pitch man? One thing we were succesful with was sometimes, rather than having a pitch man we would throw a screen to the slot. Some teams would auto blitz that H whenever motion came that way and play the safety over the top.
Hey greenough the pitchman will be determined by formation and play call. We can have as multiple people in motion in any direction at the snap. Canadian rules allows for unlimited motion. I just need 7 on the LOS at the snap. I had planned to throw the screen to the slot as well. I would like to get multiple motion to confuse defenses and disguise the pitchman.
Hey Coach, the kids are excited about it. We have been introducing bits and parts of it during our agility training. The kids are picking up on the mesh point and we are improving on our reads. I put in a veer concept with it and the kids have adapted well to it. They really like the idea of putting the 5 tech in conflict and all the non traditional things that can be done out of the whole gun concept, especially with all our motion. We will keep kicking away at it. As I have told the kids August is not that far away.
As long as you can handle the playside DT with the G and C you can have your playside OT and playside slot responsible for the stack LB and FS. If the LB goes inside for the dive the OT will pick him up and the slot will go to the FS. If the LB goes outside the slot can wall him inside and the OT can attempt to get to the FS. If the DT stretches out to the B gap the dive back can cut back into the A gap and the C should be up onto the MLB.
Mentioned above is that teams may start blitzing H and rolling the FS over the top on motion. I would use the trips set you showed above and motion #2 from the right into the backfield (this cause the H to the off. left to blitz and FS to roll to the off. left) then have him still become the pitchback going back to the right. Or motion him into the backfield to become the dive back and the RB will be the pitchback to the right. I think DeMeo calls this "flip triple option." Also when teams start aggressively attacking the direction of your motion use play action to slow them down. Fake option right with motion going to the right then throw a post to the SE coming from the left.
I have been going over this alot. I thought about the slot coming in and becoming the dive man and using the TB as the pitchman. I like that alot, especially with the speed and strength of my TB.
The one thing I thought of, and I welcome any comments regarding it, is my blocking scheme for veer. I thought about down blocking the playside DT with the OT, and folding the OG to pick up the stacked LB. Zone playside with the OC so if the DT plays in the A gap he would pick him up and the OT would work to wall off the MLB. If the DT is a B gap player he is down blocked by the OT and the OC would then go to the MLB. I keep drawing it to 34, 43, and 44 and it seems to work. I have went through many of our oppositions blitz packages and there is little if any rule variations. If you guys can find flaws in it please let me know. I am not totally sold yet but I have not found anything to stop my thought.
Mr. A I like the offensive variations and adjustments you mentioned. The one thing I am having a tough time with is thinking how people will adjust to this system because, as I stated, no one has ever run true option like this in our league. So any defensive adjustments from another source are great for me to think about.
I think most DCs will try to take away the dive and then get more people to the perimeter than you can block. LBs will run to the perimeter if they are confident the handoff key will force the QB to pull the ball and they don't have to worry about the RB with the ball running into their gap. You have to slow those LBs down. OLB/SS will support hard when they see the option coming. You need something to force them to hesitate so they are not in the backfield before your play gets going. The FS and CB will support hard to the perimeter until they believe you can get beat them with play action. Coaches will also try to confuse your QB on his reads and/or attack him right at the snap so the reads happen quicker than he can handle. Defenses will sometimes force the QB to give the ball but then stunt a LB right at the RB. Or they will stunt at the QB right off the edge taking away any time the QB has to make a pitch read. If he isn't prepared to pull the ball, then sit and pitch, the defender will be in his grill before he can get the pitch off. The gun veer has given the QB more time than under center but defensive coaches still want to try to rattle your QB to force bad reads and turnovers.
When I was in college we ran inside veer and sometimes used the blocking scheme you are talking about with the OT blocking down and the OG folding around. When we ran this scheme it was a predetermined pull. We were trying to get the ball to the outside. I think the penetration the DT could get with only the OT blocking down on him could give some problems if the ball is given to the RB. It would definitely take away his cutback possibilities. I think it is a good scheme to use but it can't be your only scheme. Again gun veer would make giving the ball to the RB with the fold blocking scheme a better play than from under center.
Post by Coach Campbell on Sept 22, 2017 16:40:39 GMT
I'm a big believer in zone blocking a number of reasons. Instead of the line memorizing every front an opponent has every week, they apply rules and concepts learned in their ZBS. I use a simple "Stop light" concept that is based on defensive alignment. If you have a running QB and athletic Back it allows those two to use their abilities to make a play, where as in a man blocking scheme will they must hit the specified hole. Now the entire line needs to make their blocks, where as in a zone scheme the ball carriers can correct mistakes with their reads. Our base play is a RPO inside zone with a bubble route that puts the defense in a major conflict. if the line is zone blocking then only the skill guys need to know everything else, because you can run IZ and OZ from any formation or motion. Taking it one step further I also use the pistol alignment for IZ with the back at 7, so he can now read the defense and blocks looking for the seam to attack. The backs use a bang, bend, bounce concept in the ZBS. Regardless of what the backfield does the line is always doing the same thing!