Flip OL with TE strength or NOT

WINem
Member

Posts: 41

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 19, 2005 10:32:49 GMT

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Post by WINem on Jan 19, 2005 10:32:49 GMT

I have had this debate with different staffs and curiuos to what a concensus might be.

Question for Pro Style Offense -
Should the OL "flip" with the TE when lining up on the left and right side.

Debate from a players perspective

G and T see the same picture or "strong side" D fronts if they flip.
Advantage / disadvantage? - they see the same "picture" but must master techniques for R and L arms and legs

OR

Play with R and L guards and tackles regardless of TE alignment?
Advantage / Disadvantage? They can master techniques (steps and punches) from one side only, but see "different pictures of the D front which may effect assignments and complicate terminology.

There are of course other advantages and disadvantages but the "mental picture" vs. technique mastery seems to be common.

tog
Senior Member

Posts: 870

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 19, 2005 14:57:10 GMT

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Post by tog on Jan 19, 2005 14:57:10 GMT

I am not a big fan of flipping. But it does cut down on the number of plays your people have to learn.

The main thing against it in my mind for the hs level is the amount of quality backups. If you only have 7 decent ol, the two swing guys need to know twice as many rules for flipping. You can't plug them in as easily during a game to substitute, or during practice to get them reps.

If you stay on the same side, then the swingmen can be a gcg, and a ot for both sides.

I think a lot also depends on what kind of offense you are running.

If you are a spread gun team, the pass set steps need to be honed going one way. It is much easier for an ot to get set up one way, over and over than it is to get them to do it on both sides.

For a more rule oriented wing t type team, I can see where it makes more sense.

Just my two cents.

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Coach Nicholson
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Posts: 780

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 19, 2005 15:10:53 GMT

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Post by Coach Nicholson on Jan 19, 2005 15:10:53 GMT

I prefer to keep my guys on the same side of the line unless we are running an unbalanced formation. To me flip floping a lineman can cause him to think to much about what he is suppose to be doing on one side versus the other side. I want to keep things as simple as possible and to me keeping lineman on one side does that.

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WINem
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Posts: 41

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 20, 2005 7:23:08 GMT

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Post by WINem on Jan 20, 2005 7:23:08 GMT

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Originally posted by: Coach Nicholson
I prefer to keep my guys on the same side of the line unless we are running an unbalanced formation. To me flip floping a lineman can cause him to think to much about what he is suppose to be doing on one side versus the other side. I want to keep things as simple as possible and to me keeping lineman on one side does that.

Curious how it is simpler for a player to learn what a ... lets say a pro 4-3 looks like on both the strong and weak side? To me the simpler part is learning techniques one way - for example, your right side guys only have to learn and practice a down block to thier left - that cuts reps to master a particular technique in half. You see what I mean - flipping decreases the # of alignments they see, but increases the "direction" of techniques. Staying decreases the # of techniques but increases the # of alignments.

BlackFly73
Senior Member

Posts: 352

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 20, 2005 7:48:24 GMT

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Post by BlackFly73 on Jan 20, 2005 7:48:24 GMT

In my opinion;

teams that flip lineman usually are doing it to try and run behind the stronger guys. When we have encountered this it is a GREAT key to set up a defense around - there is NO guarantee that you will see the 'same' technique if you flip the lineman with the TE (you wouldn't from our D). In fact you may find the defense will flip with you - or simply play you even, or stem around to create different looks.

Always try and look at it from a defense's point of view - they know you're looking for the same alignments when they flip... a good DC probably isn't going to do that for you.

I prefer to teach a lower number of techniques, as a fewer number of techniques can account for multiple alignments (zone blocking for example - footwork doesn't change at all). Plus fewer techniques mean more reps which usually means a greater mastery of the technique.

Just my 2 cents.

WINem
Member

Posts: 41

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 20, 2005 8:16:37 GMT

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Post by WINem on Jan 20, 2005 8:16:37 GMT

OK Black fly - Again - am not a proponet of flipping linemen so you can run behind the same guys right and left. I am more curious as to how a coach "wires" his OLINE. Do you guys orient them to learning and mastering techniques regardless of front recognition or learning and mastering blocking schemes vs. multiple fronts. In my opinion it takes too much time for them to know (and execute) both effectivly. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying it's probably harder for your OLINE - or they spend more time on assignments - than techniqe? Would you say what you do is more difficult mentally (assignments) or physically, (technique).

BlackFly73
Senior Member

Posts: 352

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 20, 2005 10:36:41 GMT

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Post by BlackFly73 on Jan 20, 2005 10:36:41 GMT

I prefer to work on technique as opposed to alignments.

I've found if you work on different alignments it can confuse younger players - especially if the defense gives you many looks or stems around (which we see alot of). To me... working on alignments leads to alot of 'what ifs' and that can take up reps and teaching time.

chormann
Member

Posts: 27

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 26, 2005 7:44:55 GMT

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Post by chormann on Jan 26, 2005 7:44:55 GMT

I agree w/ BlackFly,

Flipping the O-Line allows the D to key certain plays, pass protections, etc. I guess what I am trying to say here is that if you flip, then THERE ARE GOING TO BE KEYS, whether or not you mean to doesn't matter.

Second, we are Zone team and quite frankly, we spend so much time on technique that the plays are really not all that important. What ends up happening is that our guys just need to know if the play is to the right or left. With the majority of my guys, I can grab one and plug him in anywhere on our line. Because of our drill work and progression their is no need to flip, each player know every position on every play. With maybe the ecxeption of tackles kick-slidding on drop-protection.

Clinton Hormann

Coach4Life
Senior Member

Posts: 280

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Jan 26, 2005 18:43:49 GMT

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Post by Coach4Life on Jan 26, 2005 18:43:49 GMT

Chormann,

You statement about being a zone team has me curious. What other stuff do you run? We see 8 man fronts every game so I'm contemplating the benefits of spreading out and putting it up. What I'd like to do is set up a base system that allows us to go no huddle, count the guys in the box, throw if they have us outnumbered in the box or run if we have can get a hat on everybody in the box. To do that, I'm thinking we need to KISS in the no huddle by limiting the runs to inside or outside zone. Have you (or anyone else) tried a scheme like that?

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oz!
Junior Member

Posts: 10

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 12:32:42 GMT

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Post by oz! on Feb 9, 2005 12:32:42 GMT

I have played in systems that flipped and played in systems were we stayed and only the TE moved.
So I have mixed emotions about this issue.

IF you only have a few good linemen, then I fill you need to flip your line to run behind your best linemen, which sucks for scouting purposes.

you have to do what you have to do to win games.

if you have the players and depth to not flip then yes it is easier.

Coach Oz!

Coach Oz

tjtjr5475
Junior Member

Posts: 12

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 12:39:11 GMT

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Post by tjtjr5475 on Feb 9, 2005 12:39:11 GMT

I'm not a big fan of flipping to line around at all. You tend to favor a strong side and just run behind your studs all the time. In addition,it might send a message to your quick/weak personal that they are "not as valued as the studs. Teach them all the same thing and work on there weaknesses and have them play as a cohesive unit.

tjtjr54

TIGER ONE
Senior Member

Posts: 6,423

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 12:50:24 GMT

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Post by TIGER ONE on Feb 9, 2005 12:50:24 GMT

Unless you have parity with all your linemen (starters) I go with the G,T,TE ALWAYS PLAYING TOGETHER.
A QUICK GUARD AND QUICK TACKLE ARE ON THE BACKSIDE FOR SPECIFIC REASONS, AND WITH ME THAT IS A PHYSICAL OUTLOOK OPPOSSED TO ANY MENTAL ASPECTS. I am going to run behind the guys I know are the best blockers! If that hurts someones feelings, they better get some tougher,thicker skin! But, in my offense the quick side gets action all the time as we go to the backside a great deal! Just my way.

Coach Easton

J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE

SW
Member

Posts: 85

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 19:27:00 GMT

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Post by SW on Feb 9, 2005 19:27:00 GMT

I'm with you, Coach Easton. We teach all of our linemen the same techniques, so they all know how to man block, they all know how to combo block, and they all know how to pull. We like two things about flipping: (1) for the most part, weak sides of defenses look different (especially considering that we have one less blocker over there) than strong sides, so our weak side guys can get used what a weak side of a defense looks like through reps (and same for the strong side); (2) if we need a certain amount of yardage, we can put our best guys (our strong side personnel) on either side and run behind them (maybe we want to run to the field, maybe we want to run at a particularly weak defender). We also run weak a lot (particularly where D's are reducing a lot or overloading the strong side with a SS playing more like another LB), so there's no real tendancy there.

SW

38
Member

Posts: 42

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 19:39:19 GMT

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Post by 38 on Feb 9, 2005 19:39:19 GMT

I'm with Coach Easton also - we've done it both ways but I'm not deciding which way to do it based on "feelings". Heck, if they're on the field we're making them feel special already! Of course that might be easy for me to say because we are a balanced DW offense - our rules are the rules whether the play is left or right so our g's and t's and te's can play either side (at least they'll KNOW both sides). Here is one reason we have flipped in the past - we had a guard that was exceptional pulling to his right - we could not get him to stop tripping over himself when he pulled left - so we flipped G's a lot!!

About keying -- I'm a DC/HC - but if you're keying our flipping you're in trouble and my OC will eat you up with the DW - if our "studs" are on the right which side do you defend more?? the side they line up on??? or the side they're going to pull to??

TIGER ONE Senior Member Posts: 6,423	Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 19:52:03 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by TIGER ONE on Feb 9, 2005 19:52:03 GMT 38, Your keying statement shows me your experience! Good Job! Coach Easton
	J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE

38 Member Posts: 42	Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 9, 2005 20:10:51 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by 38 on Feb 9, 2005 20:10:51 GMT Thanks Coach Easton - that means a lot! I only hope I can contribute a fraction of what you contribute to this outstanding board!

oz!
Junior Member

Posts: 10

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 10, 2005 10:14:28 GMT

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Post by oz! on Feb 10, 2005 10:14:28 GMT

in the system where we flipped our strong and quicksides,
our quickside was used more...ex. quick screens and gt's
our quick screens were are sweep plays (as our H/C use to say)
and we ran a lot of gt's with IB and Slot recievers!!

Coach Oz

Coach Oz

WINem
Member

Posts: 41

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 10, 2005 12:27:24 GMT

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Post by WINem on Feb 10, 2005 12:27:24 GMT

Guys - I dont mean to be a pain in the #$$ but let me rephrase my orignial question this way.

Would you rather your OLINE master techniques from one side of the line and thus be better at those techniques

OR

execute techniques from both sides, but see the same strong or weak fronts?

Think of a tackle (for example) who has to learn to kick-slide for 5 step protections, pull on counters, scoop on backside of plays and base on the frontside. (not to mention combo's) - to do all that from one side and remain balanced in the run game - puts a greater stress on thier consistency of recognizing (and knowing how to block strong and weak side fronts) Not Flipping

If they flip - they have to master all those techniques both ways, but it's easier to recognize strong or weak side fronts.

38
Member

Posts: 42

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 11, 2005 16:26:52 GMT

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Post by 38 on Feb 11, 2005 16:26:52 GMT

WINem -

I'm sure this isn't going to help you any, but I want my lineman to do both - master technique and recognize defensive fronts - I hope that those two things aren't mutually exclusive. While I think we NEED to look for ways to make our kids better, I think we sometimes fall prey to trying to do things FOR them - and thus they aren't really better at all. There are valid reasons to flip lineman but I can't see me rationalizing teaching them less because they'll play better...I know that is idealistic and I truly hope no one takes offense because I'm not saying I'm right - I'm just saying that I would hope that my staff can teach them to do both well - and if we can't then we'd have to fix OURSELVES, not the kids...

WINem
Member

Posts: 41

Flip OL with TE strength or NOT Feb 14, 2005 12:32:19 GMT

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Post by WINem on Feb 14, 2005 12:32:19 GMT

38 - No they're obvoiously not mutually exclusive but there has to be an underlying emphasis somewhere behind what is being taught.

There is only so much practice time, and I have seen some coaches talk almost exclusively technique and others waste a bunch of time talking who to block.
To me it seems the more zone type schemes - the more technique can be taught. More man blocking schemes or plays require more time on scheme. Like for instance the double wing guy on here earlier runs double tight so there is not strong / weak recognition to deal with. (oh you are the double wing guy) - not much for you to choose (tech. vs. strong / weak fronts) from in your system. I guess I framed the question more for single TE systems - hence in my original post (pro style offense).

I know what fits my personality and system - just curious how others think about what they are basing thier teaching on.

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Post by WINem on Jan 19, 2005 10:32:49 GMT

Post by tog on Jan 19, 2005 14:57:10 GMT

Post by Coach Nicholson on Jan 19, 2005 15:10:53 GMT

Post by WINem on Jan 20, 2005 7:23:08 GMT

Post by BlackFly73 on Jan 20, 2005 7:48:24 GMT

Post by WINem on Jan 20, 2005 8:16:37 GMT

Post by BlackFly73 on Jan 20, 2005 10:36:41 GMT

Post by chormann on Jan 26, 2005 7:44:55 GMT

Post by Coach4Life on Jan 26, 2005 18:43:49 GMT

Post by oz! on Feb 9, 2005 12:32:42 GMT

Post by tjtjr5475 on Feb 9, 2005 12:39:11 GMT

Post by TIGER ONE on Feb 9, 2005 12:50:24 GMT

Post by SW on Feb 9, 2005 19:27:00 GMT

Post by 38 on Feb 9, 2005 19:39:19 GMT

Post by TIGER ONE on Feb 9, 2005 19:52:03 GMT

Post by 38 on Feb 9, 2005 20:10:51 GMT

Post by oz! on Feb 10, 2005 10:14:28 GMT

Post by WINem on Feb 10, 2005 12:27:24 GMT

Post by 38 on Feb 11, 2005 16:26:52 GMT

Post by WINem on Feb 14, 2005 12:32:19 GMT

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