Straight Leg Deadlifts/Glute Ham...or Both ?

Chuck, Jimbo, et al, -

Speaking of equipment, what is your opinion on a reverse hyper bench? Coach Hale suggested that I purchase one. I am seriously considering it, although the near-$1000 price tag (including shipping) is keeping me from pulling the trigger.

If we are already doing SLDLs good mornings, and GHR, do we need a reverse hyper bench? How is the reverse hyper different/better than doing traditional (not to mention cheaper) posterior chain auxiliary movements like the three we are already doing?

Training economy is certainly a consideration.

Right now, my other consideration is space. I really don't have a whole lot of room left. I'm going to take Coach Hale's advice and try to sell off some of the equipment that we really aren't using (leg press, leg extension/curl bench.

I'm pretty satisfied with the GHR/SLDL/Good Morning rotation that we do. I guess that I need to find out if the reverse hyper is somehow "different" or "superior" to the posterior chain work that we are doing now.

What if you guys had to choose between a reverse hyper and a ground based jammer type of machine ?
I know we're talking about 2 totally different things, but I still have to make this decision. Thanks.

Rookie,

No comparison. The Reverse Hyper will contribute to overall gains in strength & speed much more than the jammer will. The jammer is a fancy looking piece of equipment, but the benefits gained from it (or lack thereof) are not worth the money, in my opinion.

Jimbo

Coach Dertz,

good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Jimbo

Question for Jimbo Hale...
How familiar are you with Defranco's Westside for Skinny Bastards program? What are your recommedations for the Max Effort lifts and Repetition Lifts and what type of rotation to you advise?

Chuck -

What determines how many reps you work up to on your ME days?

I understand the basic concept behind conjugate training, but what I don't understand is the set/rep system. Do you work up to a three-rep max all of the time or do you sometimes work singles, or what? Does the number of reps you work up to on your ME days ever change?

Also, are you guys doing any DE work?

Is the Westside for Skinny Bastards basically a version of the old heavy/light system of training? For example, when I was in college, I would do a heavy weight/low rep workout early in the week but then a light weight/high repetition workout later in the week.

Vic,

I am familiar with Coach Defranco's program. I use something similar to this program with athletes who need extra mass. I would use as much variety as possible. Rotate (bi-weekly) different variations of Deadlifts and Squats for lower body ME work. Also rotate (bi-weekly) an equal balance of full range of motion and partial range of motion (board press, etc.) for upper body ME work. As for set/rep scheme, I usually work up to a 5rm because it will assist in adding lean body mass as well as getting them stronger.

As for the repetition work, It really depends each athlete's individual bodies. I try to set a general guideline, however some kids will get alot of benefit working in a higher rep range, whereas some will get more benefit working in a lower rep/higher intensity range. To keep it simple, I will usually use a mixture of both higher rep/lower intensity and lower rep/higher intensity. For example, on ME upper I will go with 5 x 6 on barbell tricep extensions and on Rep Effort Upper day I will go with 4 x 12 on tricep pushdowns, or something similar. I follow the same guidelines with all body parts/movements.

Hope that helped some.

Jimbo

Goveritcal-

We work up to a 3RM or 5RM for the same reasons Jimbo mentioned. We do not do any DE workouts b/c as Jimbo said if your guys are not already strong it dooes not do much good. And believe me our guys are not strong!! On most of my guys if you took off thier shrirts they would look like 12 year olds. We have a couple well built guys but they are few and far between.

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Originally posted by: govertical
Okay, I'm starting to wrap my brain around this, but I still have some questions.

1. What is the set/rep scheme in Week 1 when the kids have to work up to a 5RM? What about Weeks 3, 4, 5, etc etc?

2. What kind of lifts do you do on each day? Do the lifts change weekly? What determines the change?

3. Is the use of chains, bands, and boards used for DE work?

4. Am I making this too difficult?


What you guys are describing seems an awful lot like light/heavy training (one day of heavy weight and low reps and one day of light weight and high reps).

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1) When I work up to a 5RM, we will go with percentages (as guidelienes only) and go with 6 sets of 5 reps till we reach our 5RM. Here is how I do it:

***Week one***
Set 1- 5x (50%), S2- 5x (57%), S3- 5x (63%), S4- 5x (70%), S5- 5x (77%), S6- 5x (83%)

If a guy, on the 6th set, hits 5 reps easy...keep going.

***Week two***
3x5, 3x3, 1x1
S1- 5 x (57%), S2- 5 x (63%), S3- 5 x (70%), S4- 3 x (77%), S5- 3 x (84%), S6- 3 x (90%), S7- 1 x (101%)

If they hit a 1RM and can still go, we will.

NOTE: This is the way I set up the ME lift, but it may change some with younger guys or new guys who have little experience or technique issues.

2)We set up a pool of ME exercises and rotate them bi-weekly. For Lower, the lifts consist of Conventional, Sumo and Snatch Grip (off a box) deadlifts, Front, Back and Low box Squats and every 6 weeks or so, we will go with Good Mornings and work up to a 5 and 3 RM. (We dont go to a 1rm on good mornings...too scary with HS kids)

Research has shown that working with weight of 90% or above will burn out your CNS after 3 weeks. This is where the conjugate method and the linear method will be different. Linear will have an introductory week and a deload week (two weeks where less than maximal weight will be used). Conjugate training will use maximal weights weekly with NO intro or deload week, but will switch the lifts to keep the CNS fresh. This way you can use maximal weights year round. The more advanced you are, the more motor units you will use out of what you have available. Therefore you will get fried easier so you have to switch every week. The less experienced you are, the LESS motor units you use compared to what you have available. Therefore the CNS is not being taxed as much so you can keep the same exercise up to 3 weeks. Thats what determines the change. To keep it simple and safe, we just rotate every two weeks.


3) Boards are not used for DE work. Chains and bands ARE used for DE work, but here is the thing. Just like DE will not work for a weak person, Chains/Bands will not help a weak kid either. Chains and Bands are used to get a strong person stronger. There is no need for chains and bands if you cant squat at least 500 in my opinion. Remember that the westside guys didnt use bands until the last decade (or something close to that). They were strong well before chains and bands became part of the program.

4) Yes, you are...but don't feel bad because I think everyone new to this type of training will make it more difficult than it really is. HERE IS THE KEY HOWEVER....READ TO UNDERSTAND so that you know WHY you are doing what you are doing. That is where most go wrong. They will follow the template as is, but have no clue as to WHY they are working up to a 5, 3 or 1 RM. Or WHY they only take 40 seconds rest b/w DE work, or WHY they even USE the DE work in the firstplace or WHY they have to rotate the max effort work.

Get my point?


One last thing, I think you mentioned that you were going incorporate some of Defranco's program and BFS. I honestly would go with one or the other. The two programs are entirely different animals altogether. BFS is a solid program if a good coach is running it. It can be a less than optimal one if a bad coach runs it. Same goes for Defranco's program however. It's all in the program director.

Also the difference between the heavy/light program and Defranco's program is in the periodization of the training. USE VARIETY to get your guys strong.

The old Bill Starr heavy/medium/light program is very solid, but in my opinion if you are going to train conjugate and you know this, start on it right now!

Keep learning and keep asking.

Jimbo

Anyone got a good link for a good glute/ham machine?

and a link on deadlifts as well.

thanks

We purchse our stuff from BFS or Safe-Strength USA. Safe USA is an in-state company so we save alot of shipping. Both make tough durrable stuff.

Coach -

Maybe I'm mistaken or maybe I am not understanding your question, but I believe that DeFranco's WS4SB is a three-day a week lifting program. For athletes not currently in another sport, the non-lifting days are used for GPP and extra workouts.

Monday - ME Upper
Wednesday - ME Lower
Friday - Repetition Upper

Depending on the supplemental lifts, the sets are usually 3-4 and reps are anywhere from 6-15.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question. I certainly do not mean to insult anyone's intelligence!

I'm with you so far govertical. What kind of intensity are the 3-4 sets of 6-15 repetitions? Should the kids use the same weight for all the sets of a given exercise? Should they work up to a very tough weight? Should they be able to complete all the reps fairly easily, or just barely, or maybe not get the last one?
I am only able to work out the kids 3 times a week. I'm wondering how you guys would arrange the Max E Upper, ME Lower and Rep days if you were going to put a light plyo workout with one of the days?
Hopefully that makes more sense. I wasn't very clear.