Change from the 3-3?

I don't think a 5-3 is the magic bullet, how are you coaching your guys to handle a C gap play? I mean when you look at your game what are the kids doing when a C gap lay is ran. right off the top of my head I am thinking that your Mike backer would not have been able to change your C gap woes.

Here is what we do and let me know if you do similar- If tight end is on your side and the spur reads a down block he comes right off his butt to blow up the lead blocker/puller. He has to take him on with his inside shoulder keepig his outside arm free. When the outside backer sees the DE get blocked into his B gap he has to come over the top and get to C. We run a drill where the threee down linemen go to different gaps on their own and the linebackers have to make the line right by going into the correct gap.
The free safety should read the block and be running the alley to help on the play. One thing that i like to do is call a "walk up" call. The outside linebacker is head up on the tight end and now has C gap. Our rule for the DE is if there is a linebacker next to you, then you have B gap. Are you running anything similar? I am asking because if there is a unique situation that you are facing I would like to know ahead of time. Thanks.

Hmm, sounds like maybe the backer is getting caught in the wash. We had that problem when we first installed the stack. Now we make sure that the linebacker does not get passed the Down linemen's heels. That has helped quite a bit in taking care of that. Another thing that I might add is that we prowl before the snap and I think that helps keep the OL from drawing a bead on the linebackers. We have not had trouble with C gap or ISO. We drill the ISO every day and I love it when teams think they can ISO us. I do know that on a C gap plwy that the DE can not give up more than one yard. Is the safety able to get there to help?

georgiapride,

We switched to the 3-5-3 this season and I went (and to some degree still am going) through much of what you describe. I was always a 5-3 guy due to its ability to stop the run. Since moving to the stack as our base defense, there have been times where we have given up plays in C that have hurt us. To compensate for this we have jumped in and out of the 5-3 between running and passing situations. I found that I didn't necessarily need to add more beef on the line, only that we needed to work harder on our slants and angles. We also eagle down from time to time and even get into a 46 look. But switching between the 3-5-3 and the 5-3 wasn't too much of a change that our players had to do a lot of "new" learning. I would also submit, that if my defense was only giving up 6 points per game, that my assistants need to relax and buy in. Apparently things are working just fine. If it ain't broke...don't fix it!

We were getting killed c gap too, our DT would get doubled to the mike and TE to the sam and FB on Spur, we moved our Sam and will outside to almost head up on TE, the only time we really get hurt w/the run now is when our LB's either misalign or we just get out powered. I'm sure there is some play we're really vulnerable against, but I'm not sure what it would be that we wouldn't be giving up in the previous alignment. If nothing else the angles are tougher for the o

You know oneback that is true I guess but, you really are in a 5-3. You can move those DE's anywhere you want or stem them anywhere. I think the advantage of the stand up guys is that they are harder to hit in space. I know when we play a typical 5-3 that kickout block on the DE is usually an easy block. When you are trying to make that same block with a guy backed off and wider it is not as easy.

Maybe it is because of the teams that we face, maybe it is personell, but we juat have not had that problem. Like I said though, we really work on it in practice, we really work on ISO. I just have not been convinced that the 5-3 is any better or worse for the C gap play. Just my opinion of course (which is worth nuttin').

Thanks guy's for your help! Yesterday we installed the eagle front (just the basics) and played our 5th game tonight against a team with 2 good backs and a speedy wing. We gave up 4-5 first downs (on penalities) and won by a score of 42-0! I know I can't measure our defense by one game and one game only. But I think this will help as a switch up from the 3-5-3.

Guys first off if I had the personnel (bigger defensive linemen) I would jump into the 46. Most of us who run the stack do so because we don't have the big linemen, we have a bunch of guys that can run and hit. That is why it is a great defense when you have a bunch of kids of this type. If i were to jump into a 5-3, I don't have any of those kids to improve our defensive play, it would be the same guys.

My spurs don't lose the battle 9 out of ten times because one is 200lbs and the other is 170lbs and benches 310lbs. There job on run is actually force/ contain (that is why they take on the block with their inside shoulder, keeping outside arm free). In the blocking scheme described where the spur would get kicked out and the tight end would take care of the OLB, it is the same blocking scheme for the 5-3! You should still be o.k. because your FS (who in the stack should be one of the best tacklers on the team) is running the alley. Now a lot of times our FS will make the play at the LOS. Another thing that comes into play are line slants, walking the LB down head up the TE, Switching responsibilities, or stunting C gap. Now, I know that the person with the chalk last wins, my point of view is that if most of us had those big Defensivel inemen we would be in a different defense already. I took the view point that "beef" meant getting more guys on the LOS (spurs) and that was going to improve the defense.

Now I know that some of you are going to say take those two spurs and put them at DE because they are good sized. Not here, we played a team two weeks ago that had one kid at 305 and next to him 265 that were good athletes!

I have rean this defense now for five years, 3 conference champions and second in sections. With the correct coaching and play calling it works. By the way if I had the kids, I would be in a split 4-4.

Whatever, just seems like I got slammed for stating my opinion that the 5-3 was not a magic bullet. There is no magic bullet defense, they all have a weakness. You are right, a well coached DE would handle the tight end like was mentioned. But then the guard gets a hook block on him and they go outside with a crackback on the linebacker. That it what I meant about the last guy with the chalk.

Yep, those two would be good defensive ends in a 5-3, 6-2, 46. But the fact is we see a lot of spread and empty. Those same two guys can fly and they cover well. Because they have those skills, it allows me to lock up in man and bring the heat for pass. That is also why my FS who is the alley player, can play flat footed and help out on run support.

It sounded to me like he did not think the change would be a good thing at this time. It also sounded like they were not givivng up many points with the defense they have now. Since this is a 30 stack forum, I was just sharing info. to let him know what we did out of the stack.

Does he have those DE types that were mentioned? Does he have time to coach them to that level before the next game? Maybe, but what about option responsibilities? If they come out in spread? Seems to me if you are getting hurt only one way, try to fix it within your scheme. That's all, I didn't want to ruffle anybodys feathers, I will keep my opinions to myself.

jimmy,

No ruffled feathers here. If we all agreed on everything, what a boring game and world this would be. I know we all do what we think and know is best. And you're right, there is no magic bullet defense. Believe me, after coaching the 5-3, I know how to beat it. Please do state your opinions, because that is the way we generate dialogue and share knowledge. All opinions are appreciated, even if we all do not agree. Continued good luck with your crew.

Tiger One, you summed it up better than I did. Good job!!

Good Luck, I hope you guys tear 'em up!!