Power vs. Hang Clean

CUI,
I really appreciate the kind words. I just do alot of research and by working with different athletes as well as testing out methods on myself, I have learned a decent amount about Strength & Conditioning. However, you can NEVER learn enough and there are several coaches (louie simmons, dave tate, chrisitan thibaudeau) who have already forgotten more than I will ever know, so I always keep an open mind and try to learn as much from anybody that I can.

As far as your questions:
First, in reading the post that I wrote about cleans, I didnt exactly say what I MEANT to say. I actually DO perform "power" cleans/snatches. I just do them from the hang. A clean or snatch is classified by its starting position, what movement is being performed, and lastly by the catch. In my case the starting position is from the hang, the movement is either a clean or a snatch, and the catch is a power (meaning a bend in the knees in the catch).

Now, I don't perform snatches or cleans from the ground simply due to the increased chance of injury. If I were an olympic lifter, I would definitely perform them from the ground. But, when training football players (or any other athletes) I just have them perform the hang version because it does force the athlete to move the bar more rapidly, which will lead to more power developed in the body. As far as strength, I strengthen the areas used for power (posterior chain, hips, quads) on strength day in the form of deep squats, dead lifts, good mornings, etc. Hope that helps a little.

As far as a lifting program, you sound like you have a pretty good grasp on what should be done. A couple of suggestions that might be of help to you:

1-include Good Mornings in your program--this lift is excellent for strengthening the posterior chain. It develops strength in the muscles used for squatting and heavy loads can be used (assuming proper technique is used). Another benefit, by doing GMs, you become accustomed to having heavy loads on your shoulders while in a forward lean...this will come in handy if an athlete starts to lose a squat and begins to lean forward as he will be more able to fight his way back into position.

2-There are a few ways to use a 3 day split.
a) three total body routines (such as the one you are using)
b) Mon-Upper body strength, Wed-Lower body strength, Fri-upper/lower combo power
c) Week 1:Mon-upper strength, Tue-Lower strength, Fri-Upper power
Week 2:Mon-Lower power, Wed-Upper strength, Fri-lower strength
Week 3:Upper power, Lower power, Upper strength
Week 4:Lower strength, upper power, lower power
Week 5:Repeat cycle
This way you every two weeks you switch from having 2 strength workouts to have 2 power
workouts per week. I personally like this one the best.
d) If you can get your hands on it, Joe Kenn (Ariz. St strength coach) has a great book on developing
a three day split using a mixture of powerlifting, weightlifting and bodybuilding. Its a little too
complicated to get into here though.

3-If you dont already, be sure to add in some trunk exercises. Some good ones for athletes include:
a)forward roll- with either an ab wheel or a barbell with plates on it
b)plank- rest on elbows and toes keeping abs tight as possible (hold for 30 seconds)
c)cable ab pull downs
d)twisting cable ab pull downs (same as cable ab pulldown but start with trunk twisted one way
and on the way down, twist the trunk in the other direction. Finish at the bottom of the pull down
with the trunk twisted the opposite direction from where you started. Do a set for each side.

4-Be sure to cycle lifts every 3 or 4 weeks. Keep the major lifts, but cycle some of the others. I would
use a form of sumo or snatch grip deadlift as well. Also, cycle the reps and sets. When using maximal
weights, I like to use multiple sets of low reps (ie 8 sets of 3). The reason is that when athletes use
max weights, they tend to break down in form when using higher reps (such as 5x5 or 4x6, etc.) By
using a higher number of sets, you will get the appropriate volume even though you are using low
reps, and the athletes can keep better form. If there form breaks using 3 reps, I will even go down to
1 rep per set (such as the Westside guys do). Just make sure your guys are getting in lots of sets if
you choose to go this route. For example, doing 7 sets of 3 and then finishing with 4 sets of 1, your
guys will still have 25 total reps under their belt. (this is the same as doing 4x6, 5x5, 3x8, etc.
without the risk of improper form). Lower rest intervals are needed as the muscles and CNS have not
been completely exahausted.

Hope some of this helps you out. Good luck with your offseason, and if you have anything to add to this or questions, I'm always honored to help out.

You want to have at least a slight knee flexion when catching the bar. Don't learn to catch it with the legs straight (aka muscle clean). I teach individuals to first accelerate the bar by dipping slightly and then immediately exlpoding up (stretch-shortening cycle) with powerful leg drive, then driving the hips forward and contracting the traps in order to continue acceleration of the bar (also contracting the calves simultaneously) and then to catch the bar by squatting under it.

You sound a lot like a strength guy we are working with up in New York. He helped us put in a great group of exercies for the posterior chain. The kids love the prephase workouts we are doing now as they are intense and focused. We also do the reverse hyperball extension, which is a great lower back and trunk exercise. We are doing the good mornings with bands, and we are starting to use bands for our squats and bench press. We also will be doing our bench press from a standing position. Coach Vitale, from up in New York, showed us how to put chains on a squat rack and do our bench exercise from our breakdown position. The kids are excited because they like the variety of exercises. Our prephase training will last about ten weeks total, then we will begin our force training. Coach worked with a girl who benched over 600 pounds using this force training!

Annihil8or and any other HC experts,

We love the Hang clean up here in Poland Maine. Having done the PC as a HS athlete I know the benefits of a well executed PC and was a skeptic at first. However, I feel that incorperating the HC resulted in the greatest improvement in speed for my athletes. The kids can feel the difference and really get excited doing the lift.

One question: I have a athlete male that is starting to have his knees pinch/knock together right after he slightly lowers the bar and begins to explode at the hips. Any ideas as to how to keep he base solid prior to explosion? Tips or Hints of any kind would be great.

Thanks

Now that I think of it he is a kid that lacks mass in that region. He is a kid that commited to lifting and is progressing really quickly. His VMO is not keeping up with the rest of his development. I will talk with him and adjust his workouts thanks for the suggestions.

Should I suggest lunges at 90, 45, and 0/180 or Clock Lunges?

If you ever need anything spread option, no-huddle, etc. let me know I would love to help.

Coach Kramer

In coaching the OL, I want my athletes to be powerful and explosive out of their stance and through the opponent. This is why I always thought it best to do power cleans from the floor. I thought/think that it is most beneficial to train your muscle groups through their full range of motion. Will these kids be strong out of their stance by doing hang cleans? I'm not trying to offend anybody, just gather information, and perhaps change my way of thinking. Thanks for your input!

In my opinion, unless you compete in olympic lifting, there is no need to do the clean from the deck as the hang version gives you the same benefits. In a clean from the deck, it is harder for most athletes to learn and they often spend alot of time just learning get the bar smoothly into the power position (or 2nd pull). Plus, in the hang, there is more of a plyometric effect as the athlete has to "dip" (or push the hips back) and then drive the hips up and forward (kind of like a vertical jump). Then there is also the fact that, in a hang, the bar will have to be moved faster in order to catch it, thus developing more acceleration and bar speed.

Im with CUI in that deep back (or box) squats and deadlifts will build the strength necessary in the posterior chain that can develop into better speed and starting strength.

On a side note, to develop better starting strength, perform cleans or snatches from blocks as well as from the hang. Hang cleans and snatches develop better reactive strength, whereas cleans and snatches from blocks develop better starting strength.

In no way am I saying that PCs from the deck are not good, however if a HC can be learned in half the time and gives the same benefits, I see no reason to perform the PC.

Now, on another side note, there are other ways to develop exposiveness and speed. Explosive box squats are GREAT for developing starting strength because of the break in the concentric/eccentric chain. Speed deadlifts are also a great choice.

Think of it this way...you have a lineman that can squat 500 lbs and power clean 300. Now to develop explosiveness and bar speed you would need to use a weight about 60-70% of his maximum. If you have him doing cleans, he is going to be using about 180-225 lbs. Now if you have him doing speed box squats for explosiveness, he will be using approx. 300-350. Do you want your guy being explosive with 200 lbs or 300 lbs? I would choose the latter. Another plus about the squats, you can learn them in one or two sessions. It takes approximately 500 total reps to master a clean or snatch (thats about 16 sessions). Just something to think about.

Now, I love the olys because the complexity of the lifts stimulates the CNS, however, I am strongly considering dropping the oly lifts altogether and going with speed squats/deadlifts and speed bench for explosiveness.

Goodmornings are a great lift and should be a staple of your program. They can by cycled in different ways...I mostly use them as a supplemental lift, such as 4 x 10 or something similar. They are one of the BEST lifts for strengthening the posterior chain. Just make sure the guys keep a tight arch in the back and use the hamstrings and glutes to get the weight up.

Optioncoach,

I agree wholeheartedly about H and 62. I also agree that I need to read McGill's book. I've heard several good things about it and that he knows his stuff. Plus it IS great to get knowledge from a back specialist who actually DOES lift. Nothing worse than a chiropractor or general practitioner who tells you something like squats are bad for you when, in all actuality, they have never even seen a weightroom themselves. Like Coach X says, you have to get under a bar to really learn and know what you are talking about.

You are right, I am a Q & A junkie! X and 62 have almost convinced me to drop the olys with my guys altogether...who would have thunk it b/c I love to clean and snatch!

Were are you located, optioncoach?

Anihil8tor, I am located in Missouri, St. Louis area. I too, am questioning the oly lifts and the reward versus the risk. I used BFS for several years at a previous school and fortunately stumbled upon Louis Simmons and the boys. I can tell you point blank that the kids I've lhad on their lifting principles have made far greater gains and have experienced less burnout and plateauing. I know the first time that a kid gets to use the chains, he feels like he is big time.

Several variations of the good morning are available and can range from barbell across the back to rubber bands strapped in an almost tortuous look. The best thing I can tell you is go to elitefitnesssystems.com and look at the exercise index. The most basic fundamental in all goodmornings is to push the butt back as far as possible to lower the bar. Too many beginners will bend at the waist to perform the lift. I prefer that our athletes have slighlty bent knees with a bar on the back. We then squeeze our lats together and push the hips back as far as possible. We will push them back until the back gets to a point just before the athlete feels a rounding of the back. (There are rounded back goodmornings as well). At this point, the athlete will push the stomach out and thrust the hips forward until he returns to start position. If done correctly the hammys, glutes, and lower back area get quite a workout. And, most kids in high school are weak in those areas. Again, go to the site and be prepared to get hooked on Westside principles, it is fascinating and so far ahead of the game you will find yourself reading for hours and not even realize it.