Installing Today’s Hybrid Pistol Offense Run & Pass from Top to Bottom
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This topic may have been covered before and I may have missed it, but this year we are installing a 5-2 defense. What is the easiest read for the two inside linebackers - the guards or the nearback? Our staff has been tossing this issue around for the last month and we are pretty much split down the middle on who to key. Any suggestions or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Coach, just from my perspective.... When I played LB I was taught to read guards. I became pretty proficient at it and it served me pretty well. So I teach my ILBs to read guards. I think if you have a good kid that has great vision you can have him key from Guard to near back. As a backer if I saw certain blocking techniques/paths of the guard, that clued me as to a few paths that the RB might take. At least it gave me a first step..... Down block- look for Trap, Counter, Veer, or maybe even Iso, Pulls: inside- Trap /Counter away- outside- sweep, log or track blockoutside plays ie sweep (of course these are very basic reads and reactions).... Start with that and then looked to the back field for the next key. My point is that I really like reading guards and the best is to be able to read the three linemen together...... this does take alot of field time and experience.
If a kid can register the blocking technique/path of the guard it can be a great read for the play--- usually. The times it can hurt is if an offense knows that you have good LBs that read well and influence block them with pulls away from the play.
My two cents - and I have had some great colleagues that swore by just keying near back. I just like the progression from O-line to backs. And most high schools offenses (at least that I've come accross) will let you know where the play is going by their guards.... but don't forget to scout them out for influence blocks etc.
Great points JTW. Guards lead the play, problem I have run into is teams will begin false keying. This is especially true with the wing-T teams. So I coach the triangle method to my backers. Read guard to near back. Read that first step of the guard begin reacting to it, and then look at the back, get a feel for flow from that.
COACH, the GUARDS are the windows to any offense, especially the WING TEE... If you rely HEAVILY on reading BACKS, you will go cockeyed because backs can give you many false reads....:cool;
It is still the same story only a few months later with your post about who to read. READ THROUGH THE GUARDS TO THE BACKS!!! AS ALREADY STATED BY BILL AND ME AND SEVERAL OTHERS, READING GUARDS ONLY WILL MESS YOU UP IN THIS DAY OF FALSE KEYS. YOU MUST LOCATE THE BALL BEFORE YOU CAN STOP THE OPPONENT FROM CARRYING IT INTO THE ENDZONE!!! GUARDS DON'T CARRY THE FOOTBALL, BACKS DO, AGREED? I have had a favorite saying on this topic for a long time: "the guards are the windows to their soul". A guard pulls, there goes the ball to the perimeter. The guards drive block straight ahead, here comes the dive back! But, in this day of false keys, you had better locate the ball by reading through the guards to the backs. Case in point as a good example, Redskins counter trey.
Coach Easton-TIGER ONE
J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE
Remember this in establishing LBer "reads". WHAT COVERAGE ARE YOU PLAYING? That goes a long way in determining LBer reads. For example - if LBers are in MAN - they HAVE to read the man they cover on passes! In ZONE - there can be MANY reads!
SUMMARY:
A) MAN - LBers had BETTER NOT lose sight of THEIR MAN (you can incorporate OTHER reads with this - but THEIR MAN has to be primary).
B) ZONE - LBers had BETTER NOT lose sight of the ball (we read thru Guards TO the ball in 5-2 OKIE).
The BALL may be the single best read of all BECAUSE they can't score if it doesn't cross the goal line (it is true that the ball MAY "misdirect" you initially - but you should "stay at home" until you determine the P.O.A. ANYWAY)!
Another question to ask yourself: "What TYPE of 5-2 do I want to play"
"SLOW FLOW" LBers play relatively close (3 yds) & read Guards to the ball. In pursuit - they shuffle laterally staying a step behind the ball. NORMALLY the DLM are BASE TECHNIQUE.
"FAST FLOW" LBers play deeper (4-5 yds deep) & read a backfield key & the ball. They scrape DOWNHILL in a hurry on their read. NORMALLY the DLM slant & angle!
PS: Advice to anyone wanting to run this defense: Get a COMPLETE established SYSTEM! Don't isolate PHASES (I.E. LB READS). It must all COORDINATE TOGETHER! Find someone who RUNS this style of defense, & get the "whole ball of wax". I BELIEVE Jerry Campbell has a book on it!
Would you please be willing to elaborate on your point regarding the counter trey?
It seems to me that reading the backs would give you a false read because the FB fills away from the play and the HB takes one or more counter steps to let the play develop. The BSG however goes immediatly to the point of attack.
This play is tough to stop if properly executed, IMO. Would like to learn more about diagnosing and stopping it.
It has been my experience that reading the guards for the ILB key is the best. You don't have to tell them anything about the ball because they will be looking for the ball if they are a good LB. These guys just want to get there anyway. Yes, the guard is really just a good start for them, but in my opinion, you don't really have to tell the LBs to read the backfield through the guard. THen again, maybe that's because our guys play both ways.
I saw a team teach to read the FB to the guard he stepped. This seemed very sound, but with our guys playing both ways, we didn't have time to rep it enough.
Just my opinion.
You are correct. The GUARDS (along w/the ball) is the best key for a "slow flow" LBer IF & WHEN: A) THE LBers HAVE B GAP RESPONSIBILITY, & B) ARE IN ZONE COVERAGE.
It is the WORSE read for "fast flow" scrape LBers (where a pinching DLM has the B Gap), OR, if the LBers have MAN responsibility (because if they key the Guard on play action - they may get caught up & lose sight of their assigned receiver)!
ALL of this depends on the TYPE of 5-2 you play! That should be mentioned before proceeding with the discussion.
Here is how the ORIGINATOR of the "5-2 OKIE" (Bud Wilkinson) taught Guard reads in a BASE 5-2 Cover 3:
Line up on outside shoulder of Guard. Depth varies, but usually 2 1/2 yds deep. You have B Gap responsibility. Read the Guard (focus on the "Riddell" insignia on his forehead):
1. If the Guard drives out on you - charge straight into the Guard. Meet his as close to the LOS as possible & contact him on his outside shoulder. Never be blocked IN (away from your B Gap responsibility).
2. If the Guard blocks aggressively to his left or right - shoot the gap. As you cross the LOS stay as close to the block of the Guard as possible. By doing so you will be hard to trap.
3. If the Guard pulls in either direction, move with the Guard, FIND THE BALL, and pursue on the proper angle (CP: Do not over-run the ball - stay a step behind).
4. If the Guard shows pass - move quickly to your zone pesponsibility & play the ball.
NOTE: Ity can get a LOT more detailed & sophisticated than that - but that is the BASIC BEGINNING POINT!
I used the counter trey example just to magnify the all important fact that you must locate the ball first! With all the movement entailed in the play, it is very easy to lose sight of it. Reading just the guards and not through to the backs will not do the job for you on this play.
Coach Easton-TIGER ONE
J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE
Before we can make any real headway in this discussion, we really need to know WHAT TYPE OF 5-2 ARE YOU PLAYING?
CERTAINLY NOT WANTING TO SOUND LIKE A "KNOW IT ALL", THERE ARE SOME FACTS THAT WE MUST DEAL WITH HOWEVER THAT NEVER CHANGE. ONE BACK HAS OUTLINED MOST OF THESE ABOVE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REITERATE SOME THINGS ALREADY SAID JUST TO REINFORCE THE IMPORTANCE OF THEM!
Reading guards to the ball is the BEST read in a straight 5-2 Okie with SLOW FLOW LINEBACKERS!!!
If it is FAST FLOW with the DLM slanting and angling, with the LB's filling open gaps on FLOW, THE GUARDS ARE REALLY THE WORST READ YOU CAN MAKE. YOU HAVE TO LOCATE THE BALL IMMEDIATELY. WHY WASTE TIME READING GUARDS, THEY AREN'T GOING TO HAVE THE BALL!
THE COVERAGE BEING PLAYED IS VITAL TO MAKING THE CORECT READS AS WELL. For example, if the coverage is a man scheme, the LB's CANNOT LOSE SIGHT OF THEIR MAN. That takes precedent over the guards. See my point here? You must know what type of 5-2 your playing.
Really coaches, there are as many ways to play a 5-2 as there are coaches to coach them! Example: are the DLM 1 gap or 2 gap players? That has a MAJOR effect on LB reads.
In order to help all who are really genuinely interested in getting correct answers to your questions, and I'm sure all of you are, you need to pick one specific version of the 5-2 and let us know what that version is before discussing one small segment of that version such as is being discussed here today( LB reads). That way we can give you specific and correct answers to your questions.
I was asked above how to read the counter trey from a LB's perspective: Since you don't know when it is coming, stick with your basic reads and then thru practiced reognition by reading through the guards to the ball you will have at least a clue to when it is coming.
This is a very good discussion and we want to give the best answers we can to help y'all be right in what you are doing.
Coach Easton-TIGER ONE
J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE
Getting together some additional thoughts on reading the counter trey from an ILB perspective coach, gleaned from the Univ. of Virginia defensive play book. I'll put them together for you shortly.
Coach Easton-TIGER ONE
J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE
We run a 5-2 and play man behind it. We read the guards (or lineman they are over as we run some bear looks), then find the ball. The guard tells the LB what his first steps should be, then he finds the ball. If the gaurd pulls, we get in the hip pocket. If he down blocks, we fill ASAP. If he pass sets, we find the back out. Our nose plays both As and our DTs and DEs have c and d gap. We start the LBs as deep as possible to make sure they are coming down hill on the snap and to keep them from getting caught up in some mess.
There are things that give us trouble. Pulling the guard on a boot and sending a back opposite the boot is tough. Play action of any kind can be tough.
We will do a few things to help, depending on opponent:
1. Play some zone
2. Have the DE / OLB cover any back that releases outside of them.
3. Have the FS mirror and cover the FS vs a 2 back look.
Vs COunter Trey, the back side LB will be following the pulling lineman, while the play side LB will be filling. I think the counter trey is one reason why it is bad to look at the ball first. Maybe I am thinking of a different play?
CUI - you said the "if the G pass sets - then we find our MAN". What is he DOESN'T pass set - but aggressively blocks down on the Nose on "slide protection"?
Just my opinion - but if you played a team in "split backs" & didn't get your eyes on YOUR assigned back SOONER - no way can you cover him on swing routes, flat routes, wheel routes.
I am NOT trying to be a "know it all" but I taught the 5-2 for over 20 years (with & without MAN coverage) & I found out you need to see THRU the G to your BACK at the SAME TIME! REMEMBER: The Guard isn't going to SHOW pass on a PLAY ACTION - & if your LBer doesn't KEEP HIS EYES on HIS BACK - you will LOSE him in the route!
That's why it helps to be deeper I think. Once he reads pass, he finds the back. If there isn't someone there to take him on, that will be a good hint it is a pass.
He will have help on the swing from the OLB.
When we blitz, we will have someone in a gap watching for him. When we feel like a team is going to pass to the backs, we will run more bear looks.
There is no perfect way, but I think this is best for us. I know when our kids look at the ball, misdirection dominates us.
IF your ILB is MAN on a split back (aligned behind the OT on his side) - he is outside of your LBer to begin with, & PROBABLY a lot faster in addition. The OLB (in MAN) has the outside pass rush. If not - you don't have enough pressure (Corners cannot play man all day - the rush must make the QB get the ball out quicker in MAN).
What I am suggesting is that the ILB must look at the BACK immediately. The Guard can give the LB too many false keys in MAN! Personally don't know anyone playing man that doesn't take his cue from HIS MAN immediately!
When a team is in split backs and throws a lot, we will put the DTs over the guards and the LBs over the OTs - the LBs read OT first. If the back releases outside the DE, he will run with him. Otherwise he rushes. We usually have a FS in the middle when this is ever an issue.
We have had backs catch passes on us. That is a fact. Never for a touchdown though (knock on wood). I am a pretty slow learner. You still haven't convinced me that in small school high school football you shouldn't read the lineman over you (for our 50 defense). It could happen, but not yet.
Maybe we will not smother the back out on every play, but my LBs first job is to stop the run. If he is watching backs, he is going to be a step behind on misdirection plays (counter trey).
Coach - this is my last word on the subject. I'm not trying to sell ANYTHING. I just do not see how you can handle this (& MANY other things they can do).
If your ILB can read the Guard (agressive block on DE) - ignor the fake of a FB right AT him, & still cover the RB M/M on a WHEEL route (flat & up the boundary) you are a GREAT coach, AND have GREAT players (which I am sure is the case):
I don't believe the ILB can key the OG blocking out on the DE (OT blocks out on OLB), ignor a play fake to F right at him (he CAN'T ignor the fake because - as Lombardi LOVED to do - you can just GIVE the ball to the FB on the "SUCKER PLAY"), & STILL cover R on a swing, flat, or WHEEL route! This is EXACTLY the "match up" I was looking for as an "OC" in HS, College, & Semi-Pro.
We would probably have a call for the FS to mirror or cover the halfback if we saw this.
We chart every play our opponent has run the previous 2 weeks and in past season's games, then game plan to stop them. Sometimes we do better than others.
Thanks for the discussion Bill.
Thanks and same to you. I always learn something from your posts. And for the record, our players aren't exactly classified as great and I am certainly not a great coach. I try to do what I think is best. Take care, and thanks again. Happy holidays.
Here is as good as an example as I can think of to illustrate the point Bill and I are trying to make about ILB reads. I have no idea how old you are, but we are old enough to remember a great SUCKER PLAY Vince Lombardi used to run to take full advantage of ILB's trying to run with Paul Hornung whereby he would give the ball to Jim Taylor who would romp because the ILB's had been sucked out of position by Hornung and them trying to run with him. Check it out and see if you don't agree.
Coach Esaton-TIGER ONE
J.C. EASTON<BR>HEAD COACH<BR>GA TIGERS FOOTBALL<BR>PROFESSIONAL MINOR LEAGUE
CUI, TIGER-1: A good solution in the 5-2/Man is to pinch the 4 technique (or 4I) DE into the B gap so the ILB can work OUT to read the HB(behind the OT). That way he doesn't have to mess with the OG & worry about the B Gap.
Our ILBs are taught to get their initial read from the near back. More often they are both reading the FB (vs an I), but the "near back" rule holds true for split backs.
If the near back attacks the LOS on our ILB's side of the defense, that ILB is expected to cause a "train wreck" at or behind the LOS using his inside shoulder.
If the near back tries to get the corner on our ILBs side, he will flow that way and diagnose the play on the run.
If the near back goes away, our ILB will step that way, looking to play the cut back, but will be looking for any hats coming back his way (far back, pulling guard etc.).
The trouble with the counter trey is that the backside ILB gets a bad read from the fb who is filling for the pulling OG and OT. Even if the playside ILB recovers and gets outside leverage on the pulling lead blocker, the backside ILB is often caught up in the wash and unable to get there in time to fill on the cutback.
My questions:
1) Is this a sound way to teach the ILBs?
2) If so, any coaching points on stopping the counter-trey?
3) If not, what is a sound (or the best) way to teach the ILBs in this scheme?
Have the BSLB read the FEATURE BACK! I can't imagine ANYONE playing the Chargers that would read anyone OTHER than "LT"!
Don't know about your opponents, but around here in HS (& in the NFL & Major College) "SPLIT FLOW" from an "I" means the deep back (feature back) gets the ball OVER 90%!