Consensus on Cleans

Coach,

We use the part - part - whole theory in teaching the cleans. ex. #1: Week 1 and 2 for beginner of cleans. Front squats (finish position of clean) ex. #2: Clean deadlifts (starting position of power clean) will lift the bar off the floor with a flat back, big chest and teach kids that the first pull (from the floor to knee is slower than the 2nd pull) 2nd pull is from the knee to the catch. When we do clead deadlifts they athlete will accelerate the bar up and we actually will explode up onto our toes.
ex. #3 Clean High Pulls (from a hang position the athlete will explode up and off the floor accelerating the bar up as high as possible and but not into a catch position. We will incorperate all of these lifts through out our training, even after we have them hang and power clean. We even start the kids off sometimes with PVC pipe filled with sand.

In regards to the original question, I personally, would have to say that cleans are NOT the end all-be all of power exercises. It is true that they are a great lift for increasing power, but here is something to think about...

Olympic lifting is a sport within itself. It takes world class olympic lifters years to perfect their technique. These are the guys that do it for a living. My point is that these are very complicated lifts that are really more technique than anything else. I, myself, would rather spend this precious time teaching an explosive box squat or an explosive bench press, as these exercises are also great for developing power in the areas needed for the sport of football and can be taught in about 1/16 of the time it takes to teach a clean or snatch.

I am in no way against oly lifts, and I have the utmost respect for the lifters as I feel that many oly lifters would make tremendous football players. However, it is a tough thing to expect a kid to perfect a lift that takes olympic caliber athletes years to perfect.

It is a simple cost vs benefit thing and in my opinion the cost outweighs the benefit.

Just one man's opinion,

Jimbo

Hey govertical--You must be from Eastland-Pearl City! I am originally from Freeport, and I was a Bulldog. I gotta admire your team's ability to throw the ball. We gotta discuss what you guys do sometime.

Yes I know all about the 2002 shootout. I run the I formation, and mix 4 wide sets a little. Last year we did not throw so much since our QB was a 10th grader who was RAW. The year before we threw 20-25x a game with some success. I never played in the UIC I was back in the days of the NWIC. I am glad I never had to play EPC. I just got kick Eastland's butt (ha ha), but then we also got smoked by Galena & Stockton. Aquin had an incredible group of athletes the last few years. I would think the talent pool will dry out soon for a while. They have a great wt program there though.

What were your best run plays from the spread sets? Wasn't Lower an all-state RB too?

groundchuck -

I responded to your question about running the ball out of the spread in the "Installing the Running Game" thread under the topic "EPC Running Game out of the Spread". Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks, Coach.

I really like the concept of doing cleans in a phone booth. It's kind of like training kids to squat properly by facing a wall.

I will try that this week!

Jimbo -

I am new to this board and I just wanted to say thanks for all of the great info you have posted here, free of charge. It is greatly appreciated and your enthusiasm for coaching is quite obvious.

I've come full-circle on the use of Oly lifts. When I took over the weight room four years ago, the initial program I had the kids on called for lots of Oly-style lifts (specifically the hang clean, power clean, snatch, and push press/overhead jerk).

Over the next few years, I steadily became disappointed in the overall progress that our kids were making on the lifts. Also, I was worried about safety. Being the only supervisor in a relatively small weight room filled with 20-25 kids who are lifting is sometimes a daunting task. I worried about a kid getting injured while performing an Oly lift mainly due to the cramped space we work out in.

One of the big reasons I switched to BFS about 6 months ago was the emphasis on building strength and the de-emphasis on Oly lifts. We still clean once a week, but we now spend more time getting bigger and stronger and less time on Oly lifts that at least 50% of the kids were doing improperly.

While I believe that lifts like the bench press and the squat are more important than the clean, I do think that the clean serves an important function, at least for our kids. I have a record board in our weightroom that displays the two heaviest lifts for each of our test lifts. Right now, our all-time clean leader has a lift of 290. The second place guy has a lift of 275. Both of these guys are "little" (under 190 lbs.) I like the clean because it gives the small but quick and athletic kids who might not be able to bench press a case of beer something to get excited about in the weightroom.

govertical,

I appreciate the kind words. I consider it an honor to converse with such a wide variety of coaches with different beliefs and ideas. I'm glad to be able to help out. When I first started in this profession, all I had were the ideas that I was given in high school and the information from college classes (which isn't much, by the way). What got me to where I am now was the help from other coaches who were willing to take the time to share ideas and philosophies with me (among many other upcoming s&c coaches) and my passion to be the best that I can at what I do. Most of all, though, I thank God for putting me in a profession where I can touch lives and maybe even change some for the better.

As for the clean, I believe in going with what works for you and your team. Just because I don't use cleans does not in any way mean that I think a coach who DOES perform them is wrong. Results are something that cannot be argued with and if you are getting results with your team, then thats great. I always do my best to keep an open mind, however and even though something may sound foreign to me in the beginning, I will research it until it makes sense and then see how it weighs out in relation to my own philosophies. There are ideas that I have read about that I have turned away and there are some that I have read that caused me to change my whole way of thinking.

Louie Simmons and his ideas sounded so far fetched to me in the beginning that it took me a year and a half before I decided to give his methods a try. In the meantime, however I spent many hours researching eastern bloc methods (which Louie is an advocate of) and even incorporated a few of the eastern methods into my own training.

I finally realized this...yes it is true that Westside Barbell is a lifting club for powerlifters. Westside Barbell uses conjugate periodization. Then I thought to myself..."what physical attributes make a good powerlifter?"

1) Strong Posterior Chain- impossible to be strong in the squat/deadlift with a weak pos. chain.
2) Strong Trunk- Lower back/abdominal strength is mandatory when trying to squat 900+ lbs.
3) Strong Upper Back- A natural platform for the bar when performing squats is important.
4) Strong Triceps/Lats- These muscles are important in pressing, you are as strong as your weakest link
5) Confidence/Attitude- Not really physical, but important nonetheless

Then I asked myself, "what physical attributes make a WELL DEVELOPED football player?"...

1) Strong Posterior Chain- this is where speed and jumping ability are founded. If you are weak here, you are probably slow and can't jump very high in most cases.
2) Strong Trunk- This is your base, you will get thrown around with a weak one of these.
3) Strong Upper Back- Football is a brutal game, no mass in the shoulder/neck/trap area and you will be worn down quickly and have a better chance of getting hurt.
4) Strong triceps/lats- these (along with pos. chain/trunk) are important especially when blocking. Think O-linemen's need for arm/hand speed, a fb/rb driving off a lb or DE, a wr stalk blocking.
5) Confidence/Attitude- How many times have we seen an undersized/less skilled player take over a game because he is confident and has that killer instinct?

hmmm...powerlifting....football training. They are closely related. Ok, so what about cleans? Where can I fit them into a powerlifting type template (ala westside)? Well, you CAN replace the dynamic work with oly lifts...but why? Like I said earlier, a clean is mainly moving your body AROUND the weight. A squat is mainly moving the weight WITH your body. They can both be done explosively, yes. BUT, as described in an above post, you can use MORE weight and still be just as explosive. (250 lb lineman = 500lb squat = 275-325 explosive squat [55-65%]). This guy can squat 500, but can only clean 300. This means by speed box squatting he can move 325 (65% of 500) fast, but if cleaning he can only move 195 (65% of 300lbs) fast. Hmm...325lbs or 195lbs....Force = Mass x Acceleration. Ok, so if F=MxA, I would want to put 325 in the "M" spot rather than 195, considering "A" will be the same.

These were the ideas that put me where I am today. Like I said, I am not against oly lifts. If they work for your program, then GO FOR IT. Just try to keep an open mind, because that is usually the downfall of a potentially successful coach. I made a promise to myself to NEVER let an EGO keep me from learning. You can learn something from anybody and you will learn until you die. Everyone needs to believe in something regardless of what it is. I have my beliefs (even though they are heavily influenced by Louie Simmons and many other foreign advocates of the conjugate method), and others on here have theirs. As long as we strive to reach the same goal (that, being to give 100% in developing these athletes to their highest potential) then it makes no difference HOW we get there...as long as we get there.


groundchuck,

Joe D. gave some examples of what an added lower body repetition day would look like (basically a 4 day split). Just in case you don't have it, here it is:

A) Unilateral (either vertical or horizontal) Movement 3-4 x 12x15
B) Posterior Chain Movement
C) Posterior Chain Movement
D) Weak Point Movement (either upper or lower)

By the way, this routine isn't only for skinny guys...any body who wants added mass can benefit from a program like this as well as well developed athletes just coming off of a season. I use something similar to Joe D's program with young or inexperienced guys who aren't ready for explosive work yet.


Jimbo

I have been a follower of Louie Simmons and Dave Tate for a while. In fact Kent Johnston, who I believe is still the strength coach for the Seahawks, put together a football strength training program baed on Westside methods. I have a copy and would be happy to share it with anyone who is interested. Basically it is like the DeFranco stuff except Johnston uses a dynamic effort workout instead of the rep workout on the 3rd day. I feel the one day of high reps with HS kids is better than the dynamic day for this reason: MOst HS kids simply need to get BIGGER & STRONGER, and are not elite enough where the dynamic day will make a major difference. He also advocates "extra" workouts like sled pulls etc on off-days. We have not gotten into the sled pulls. I too love this site. I can learn something new every day.

I will be more than happy to do so. But you'll have to wait until I get back from break. Look for it by next week.

Coach -

I'd appreciate a copy, too.

My name is Chris Dertz. You can fax it to me at Eastland Middle School. Our fax number is 815/864-2281.

Let me know if I can give you anything in exchange. I would love to reciprocate your generosity!

No problem. Just get me a fax number and I will send it next week when we go back to school.

groundchuck -

My email is cdertz@eastland308.com. I will be looking forward to that workout. Thanks a lot!

I checked out that Westside For Skinny Bastards workout you told me about. I like the philosophy behind it. I have about 5 or 6 kids who would really benefit from the program. I am thinking about modifying the BFS program we use for these kids along those lines.

One of the kids is about 6-0 and 250, but he is pretty soft (struggles mightly to get a good, parallel squat and only benches about 155). However he has decent feet and is tough on the field. As a sophomore last year, he gave our varsity o-line hell when he played on the scout team. He can be a good, solid DT if he can get stronger.

If I make these changes, this is what the modified BFS split will look like:

Monday
Bench Press
Squat
Lower body aux

(I think that I am going to drop the Box Squat and Towel Bench for these kids. Will that be a problem?)


Wednesday
Dead Lift
Upper Body Aux

(I think that I am going to drop Cleans for these kids. It just doesn't make much sense to me for a kid who benches almost 100 pounds under his bodyweight and who can't drop into a good parallel squat to do Olympic lifts.

Friday
Bench Press
Squat
Lower body aux

I have some questions about this plan:

1. Is it okay to bench and squat twice in a week using the same set/rep scheme? The DeFranco program has the lifter going heavy on the first day, but going for reps on the second day. I would like to keep this modification within the framework of BFS simply because the kids have really bought into it. That would mean that on both days, the kids would do the same workout (either 3x3, 5x5, 5-4-3-2-1, 10-8-6).

2. If I drop Cleans from this routine, what core lift can I replace it with?

3. Is change necessary? We have been on BFS for about 6 months and the kids, including the ones I discussed earlier, are still breaking double digit records every week. Do I let the kids continue what they are doing because they seem to be having success? Am I micromanaging?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Groundchuck, could you email me a copy of Seahawks program as well?

My email is buckeye7525@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance.

I found something interesting while looking through the Elitefts Q&A's last night.

Tom Mylanski (sp?) gave reasons why he feels that olympic lifts are not sport specific and are infact determintal to an athlete (or at least a linemen, this was the example he used) because they teach the athlete to raise their center of gravity which becomes engrained in thier muscle memory. On the field it would result in an defensive linmen raising up out of his stance and allowing the offensive linemen to get leverage on him.

Instead he believes that they should concentrate on hip extension drills (he gave a list of these) in order to teach what the athlete should be doing on the field.

Any thoughts on this ?

I can post his whole response if anyone would like to read it for themselves.