2 back, 3 wide run game (zone)

Yourkillinme,

Your saying that unless you can change the D and coverage, your not going to be successful in the running game? You say that removing the TE adversely affects the running game is too strong of a statement? I would have to respectfully disagree with both of those statments, coach. If the first statement is true, then you are allowing the defense to dictate to you what you can, and cannot run.
The second statement pertaining to the TE, imo, by the original poster is right on. How far do you think that you would get in a power/counter series without a TE? Or any running play for that matter that calls for the TE to block down and combo with the PST, or if you choose to run the OSV with a TE in his normal position and not flex him outside, who is going to arc release and get the Sam Backer or SS? See my point?

Coach Easton

I actually meant 2 back/3 wides no shotgun, just I formation with QB under center. I think you can effectively run from this formation as well as throw it. The lead draw is lethal from this formation as well as the playaction off of it.

Maybe it is just my current head cold that's got my sinuses stuffed to the brim... but what I THINK you are saying is that you're only taking what the defense gives you - and you are purely reacting to their looks - and you're now on your heels.

Personally I don't like that mode of offensive football. The whole point of being on offense is to dictate the play, by formation, motion, playaction, and snap count - and make THEM adjust to YOU.

I agree you NEED at least 1 TE to have an effective running game, the most problematic sets for defenses are usually EVEN sets, meaning 2x2 type sets. Although this can be accomplished out of a Gun... I find it's not usually truly even then either. Our DC has been in football for over 40 years - he has coached at all levels, and is extremely well respected in our area - the sets he has trouble the most with are teams with 2 TE's, where there is no 'strong' or weak side... when a team gives us a strong & weak side... we've usually gotcha.

It's just a different philosophy of football I think... you're more reactive... myself (and perhaps TigerOne and Oneback - although I am humbled enough by them to defer to their experience) and others prefer a more proactive approach - we want to force the defense to have to line up, and stop BOTH run and pass - there is no real greater heart to football than the running game; it remains the heart and soul of football.

When you mix in different formations, shift, motions, etc... with that extra TE or two up front... you force the D to defend extra gaps and you open them up NICELY for play actions and seam routes. Along with the motions and sets you'lll FORCE mis-matches in coverages... which is where your points are, and usually what Peyton Manning is looking for when he's at the LOS...

Hopefully I got this right... now its time for Nyquil.

Coaches,

Both oneback and I are disciples of Sid Gilman, the father of the modern passing game. Bill Walsh, Don Coryell, Ernie Zampesi, Norv Turner, Norm Chow all the great passing game gurus were Sid Gilman disciples who believed in his passing game philosophies without exception! Coaches like oneback and myself who have spent our lives coaching his philosophies as well as our own tweakings of the original
version on our respective levels, are just as dedicated to the philosophy as the big name guys mentioned above. One back has had the privilege of knowing Sid on a personal basis. I have not. But, I have coached his teachings, as a QB coach/OC/HC for many years. I am going to start a thread in a few days that will post Sids teachings, and you will be amazed at how relevant they are for todays game! I hope you will enjoy the thread.

Coach Easton

Depending on the width of his alignment, & his ability - the SLOT is usually covered by a Safety or Nickle Back. The TE can work on a "wide assed" MLB, & with a more direct shot at the post area - has a GREAT chance to win on what the "PROS" call the "ADJUSTABLE 8" route (MOF OPEN - TAKE IT; MOF CLOSED - CURL UP IN THE "HOLE").

What many of Coryell's disciples (Gibbs, Henning, etc.) do is what Coryell did with Kellen Winslow (I would rather have that type athlete running in the MOF than a WR type) is to motion him over to 1 yd outside Y & have HIM run the "adjustable 8". That way - the TE blocked & when "H" ran the route, he wasn't subjected to the "hold up" technique the defense has planned for Y.

A tight end running the adjustable 8 route is a godsend. But that also means that you are using the laws of contracting/spreading the field as Robinson does and Gilman taught. Using multiple one back formations, motions, and trades is the way to accomplish that. The key with any one back attack, is motion to create more advantageous soft spots (Gilman, The ABCs of the Passing Game, 1988). The advatages gained by contraction and expansion are more important than which personnel is used. With a spread you force the defense to either blitz or add DBs, and with a TE one-back system you force a slower moving LB to cover a TE in the passing game. They both have equal merit in my eyes, thus the multiple spread/one-back system.

Sorry about the rambling, but the Nyquil is starting to set in.

Tog,

Your right! A lot of rhetoric over and over and over. Once a post is offered to a new coach, just digest it and go on. Don't continue to beat it to death. If you want to accept it, fine. If you don't, just do it however it works best for you. Football comes down to basic skills, BLOCKING AND TACKLING, and that will never change. It doesn't take a nucleur physicist to figure out a zone blocking scheme that incorporates a simple handful of rules to be followed. I've sat under some very successful people at clinics for 40 years! I once heard Mickey Andrews at a Fla. State clinic talk for SEVERAL HOURS NON STOP
on defensive philosophy and implementation of various schemes. I've listened to Hal Mumme speak on his Air Raid spread game. I've listened to Mark Richt and spent time with him on the practice field. The one common denominator that they all share, is the simple fact that what they know is useless if they can't communicate it to the players!!! Good coaches, imo, use the KISS method.

Coach Easton

After reading these posts I thought I would put my two cents in. While I agree that not having a tight end limits gap blocking schemes that incorporate some kind of a kick out on the end man on the line of scrimmage, I don't see what is lost in a zone scheme. For one, you should get a larger and better blocker in a tackle on the end instead of a tight end, and you have a lead blocker. Incorporate that with a crack by the # 2 receiver and you can get some nice seams on a stretch or zone toss. No tight ends can also give you some advantages in an option scheme versus four man front defenses. In the triple you can read the end, crack with the # 2 and get your qb and pitch back on an invert player. Granted you may have a safety running the alley to the qb, but that also opens up some play action possibilities to the #2 receiver on a crack and go. I've seen one great wishbone team in Okahoma run with no tight end many times bringing the playside half back right off the hip of the de and sealing the lb, getting the qb and pitch man out on an invert player. Two split ends with three in the backfield can provide some nice opportunites in the throwing game as well, particularly if you have good matchups on the outside. For one, the corners have to be truly on an island or you can get a numerical advantage at the point of attack with two lead backs.

What oneback is saying about the importance of a TE in the running game AND passing game is right on. It becomes harder to run wide zone and counter/power game when you don't have a TE. In fact, it becomes MUCH harder.

And when it comes to the passing game, having 4 line of scrimmage receivers makes a huge difference to what a defense can do, especially if one of those 4 receivers is a TE checking out in pass protection. The defense HAS to account for him even though he is blocking because he is on the line of scrimmage. If they don't it can go for a huge play. We see this all the time when defenses don't account for him because he is blocking and the QB dumps it off to him late in a delayed route.

BH - the boot pass to the TE on his "slam release" when QB fakes the zone play opposite has been HUGE in the NFL. Alex Gibbs believes that it is IMPERATIVE to the success of his vaunted WIDE ZONE/TIGHT ZONE plays!